This conversation occurred in the depths of the pandemic... probably month 13 of the lockdown. Somewhat weary and deeply concerned about the political situation in the United States, I called upon my friend, Joe Costello, to give me some perspective. And so he did, and he took me all the way back to the Roman Republic. The conversation reveals strong parallels to the challenges we face today; and a subtle, deeper awareness of the dynamics of power and a degraded citizenry unable to function as it once had. I am very happy to share this conversation with you all. And if you want to follow Joe, go to his Substack: https://joecostello.substack.com/